Mô tả
When traveling in either direction on Glenwood Avenue, it is extremely unsafe to make a left turn onto either Whitaker Mill Road, or Fairview Road. Drivers who attempt to turn left on the solid green light (not the green arrow) cannot see far enough ahead to know if the intersection is clear. This intersection is confusing enough without this added safety concern. I've seen many accidents here and was in one myself when I tried to turn left here. If you don't turn left on the solid green, the drivers behind you will get angry and try to drive around you, which is even more dangerous. The addition of a No Left Turn arrow on this traffic signal would solve this problem. I can't believe that hasn't been done already!
34 Bình luậns
Devon J Smith Jr. (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
I'm with you on this but you can't just slap a no-left-turn sign and call it a day. They would have to do a lot more to convert the intersection and account for where else the people could go to get to where they're going. Etc.
At the very least add some protected left turn cycle with a distinct sign. Or indication it's not safe to turn left. A lot of places have the blinking yellow turn indicated for yield turns now because of this very reason.
Devon J Smith Jr. (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
DogBear (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Được thừa nhận NICK (Chính thức đã xác nhận)
Đã đóng NICK (Chính thức đã xác nhận)
Reopened eatberry (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
jimbro (Khách)
LakeMonstor (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Được thừa nhận NICK (Chính thức đã xác nhận)
Raleigh_Citizen (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Devon J Smith Jr. (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Jojo (Khách)
Anna (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
What do you do when you want to go across from Whitaker Mill to Glenn? I would think one would need to do this from the left lane on Fairview but I saw someone in the right lane cross to Glenn today and it appeared to be unsafe. This is probably the most messed up intersection in Raleigh in my opinion and why the city wont do anything about it is beyond me.
5 Points Neighbor (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
The upcoming *** 2 YEAR *** closure of the Capital + Peace bridge is going to add more pressure to the intersection and needs to be addressed proactively. See http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2015/10/08/downtown-bridge-projects-may-spur-development.html
We have heard two answers why this can't be addressed:
1. It is a DOT intersection
2. It is a city council issue
There have been multiple complaints about this for years:
https://seeclickfix.com/issues/1621593
http://seeclickfix.com/issues/997712
http://seeclickfix.com/issues/928794
Attached is a pic with traffic backing up into the previous intersection (Sunset & Whitaker). Please get it fixed. Starting with a simple left turn arrow for Whitaker Mill. Seriously, WTF? It's not that hard guys...
Pierre Tong (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Raleigh_Citizen (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
5 Points Neighbor (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Pierre, great work trying out real data! Where did the data come from? There might be some data missing from your assumptions. Having lived at the intersection for 12 years, there are things you can't help but notice sitting through multiple light cycles.
First, cars coming from Whitaker Mill, the traffic forks, however the right turn lane is way too short. This means right turn traffic, is blocked by the left turn traffic which must yield to the on coming traffic. This blocked up right turn traffic, which has the right of way is backing up left turn traffic behind it. And that is how things get backed up past Sunset every morning and evening.
Second, there is a lot of hesitation by drivers from Fairview and Glenwood because the oncoming traffic is at an obtuse angle. This slows things down greatly in the intersection because even vehicles with the right of way pause unsure if the other guy is really going to yield.
I do not think the light cycle length needs to be changed, as much as clear right of ways given. Similar to the left turn from Glenwood onto Glen Eden, just a mile or two away.
Pierre Tong (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
The numbers I use were just guesstimates so definitely not real data! (But was just curious what could be done to fix the intersection from a signal standpoint since I drive through the intersection every day) I took the average daily traffic numbers from the Glenwood Ave and Whitaker Mill Road approaches, plugged them into a spreadsheet NCDOT uses to estimate traffic volumes at intersections during AM and PM rush hour periods. They're definitely not accurate and you would need to get someone to actually count the cars during those periods to get accurate numbers as I could be way off. But since I didn't have any real data and it's not a project of mine, that's all I had to go on.
I agree that the right turn lane needs to be extended. There are times when I want to go straight on Fairview or right on Glenwood but cannot because the right turn lane isn't long enough. Once you get accurate traffic counts, you can plug it into a model and figure out how long the turn lane needs to be. From my guess, I got 275 feet, it's currently 125 feet.
On my way home today, I almost got hit by a driver turning left from Glenwood to Fairview who didn't realize the light had turned red (I was going straight from Fairview to Whittaker Mill). I think the city plans to relocate the lights to a more visible position so that will definitely help to avoid trapping.
I did talk to someone at the city and NCDOT recently and they mentioned how there wasn't much of a accident history out there surprisingly. There are definitely lots of near accidents but there doesn't appear to be a whole bunch of actual accidents. If I have some down time at work, I can see if I can run a crash analysis of the intersection for the last few years.
Lastly, I think that while Whitaker Mill Road definitely warrants a protected left turn lane, the city doesn't want to put it in because in addition to it causing the intersection to fail traffic-wise, there are also other alternative routes to turning left onto Glenwood. If you live south of Whitaker Mill, you can turn left onto Glenwood at Harvey. If you live north of Whittaker Mill, you can go up to Anderson and access Glenwood from the St. Mary's/Anderson intersection. So it's not like the Whitaker Mill approach is the only way for people to get where they are going and the traffic can be distributed to the other side streets.
eatberry (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
I'm not sure where the link immediately above came from. What I want to say is, WHY does the city never consider putting a roundabout at the Five Points intersection? Or HAS it been considered and put aside as not workable--and if that's the case, I'd like to know why not? I negotiate all three roundabouts in the NCSU Belltower neighborhood with ease and safety--also the one at Hillsborough and Morgan--and I feel they're miles better than what was there before.
Pierre Tong (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
eatberry (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Pierre Tong (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Raleigh_Citizen (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Pierre Tong (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
See attached table from FHWA (Federal Highway Administration) roundabout website (http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/innovative/roundabouts/fhwasa10006/)
The volumes from the Glenwood Avenue and Whitaker Mill/Fairview approaches exceed 25,000 vehicles per day - it would almost certainly require a multi-lane roundabout for it to operate correctly. The current width of the intersection is about 130-175 feet (depending which way you measure it) and a multi-lane roundabout has a diameter of 150-300 feet so businesses would be affected whether it's the pharmacy, gas station, church etc.... A roundabout is certainly not desirable there and there is no point in the city spending millions to put one in if it is not going to work (and also make people unhappy). The volumes at the NC State bell tower are much lower which is why a single lane roundabout would work (they initially had a multi lane roundabout I believe but they took it out because people were confused).
5 Points Neighbor (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
The city originally had a multi-lane round about at the bell tower, but had to reduce it because of very accident numbers. See http://raleighpublicrecord.org/news/2011/09/12/accident-numbers-at-hillsborough-roundabout-higher-than-expected/ and http://www.wral.com/traffic/story/11369528/
Pierre, how does the city think a turn arrow will "cause the intersection to fail traffic-wise" ?
Have you looked at accident data between Sunset and Glenwood. I believe I have seen at least 3 fender benders there this year. The backed up traffic is dangerous, and there is heavy pedestrian traffic.
Sure, one can get to S Glenwood via winding through the Roanoke Park neighborhood... So their answer is to point traffic down scales, past the loading zone for Underwood Elementary? That seems wrong headed and leads to worse problems and more severe accidents.
This crux of the issue is two things. The traffic coming South on Fairview has the right of way and
1. Is at a 120 angle from the opposing traffic on Whitaker Mill
2. Right of way traffic can make * 5 * possible turns
This is why this intersection is so challenging for drivers. It is a nerve racking experience driving across that intersection whether on Whitaker Mill or on Fairview. A clear right of way needs to be stated for drivers in all directions.
Someone from the city needs to visit this during rush hour (before 9, after 5), particularly during school (last day of classes is today). I have said this before... when a fatal accident occurs at this intersection, there will be a very expensive lawsuit, and these threads are evidence enough citizens are notifying the city which refuses to act on addressing a dangerous intersection. Why must people suffer (be involved in accidents) before the state + city government will act on this?
5 Points Neighbor (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
"City of Raleigh 3 (Verified Official)
Per Public Works, this issue has been discussed numerous times and is now on NCDOT’s list to be rebuilt with a protected left turn. There is no date set as of yet. Staff will continue to monitor and make any necessary changes.
2014-05-29"
I just saw this comment two years ago on this thread https://seeclickfix.com/issues/997712 Can another "Verified Official" comment on this and why it was going to happen, and now we are told above it is not?
Pierre Tong (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Disclaimer - I don't work for the city or any city projects, just based on my limited knowledge about traffic operations......
There are a couple key factors in traffic engineering - one of them is level of service (LOS) and delay (how much time the average car has to wait at an intersection, main streets and side streets included). Level of service is a graded A -> F (A = very good, F = failing - kind of like a report card) based on the average intersection delay. For my analysis with the volumes that I estimated, without the protected left turn - the intersection performed at LOS D with a 53.7 second average delay which is acceptable. With the protected left turn, the intersection performed at LOS F with a 85.6 second average delay which is unacceptable. Wish I had some actual real numbers so I could tell you how it actually would turn out rather than hypotheticals.
Here's the response that I got from someone at Public Works a few weeks ago when I asked:
"Thanks for your inquiry. As it currently stands, NCDOT's Division 5 office is working with the City to replace the current wooden pole span arrangement at the five points intersection with metal poles with mast arms. The one wooden pole adjacent to the Hayes Barton Church continually gets hit (again last week). Rebuilding this intersection has become a maintenance burden on the City. As part of the rebuild, the City and NCDOT are looking at the phasing. This intersection has operated with both Whitaker Mill Road and Fairview running concurrently for many decades. It feels a little awkward however there is no crash pattern and the conflicting volume compared to the number of vehicles turning left does not satisfy the Federal warrants for a protected left turn phase. The delay on the side streets might seem excessive however the vast majority of the traffic that passes through the intersection uses Glenwood Avenue. An additional phase might benefit the side streets however it would come at the detriment of the majority that use Glenwood. All that said, we are looking into some unique phasing arrangements to assist with the side streets. We have and will be using micro-simulation software to model this so we can measure the impact of an additional phase. At the moment , we are still looking at it. Please feel free to contact me if you have any additional questions or concerns."
and from NCDOT
"While the volumes on the westbound approach of Whitaker Mill Road may be fairly high, there are other alternate routes that through residential streets that many locals utilize to access southbound Glenwood. Adding green time to Whitaker Mill for a protected movements adversely affects Glenwood which is our biggest concern for mobility in this area. Some delay is expected on the side streets."
I'll see if I can look up the accident history sometime in the next few weeks when I have time. It's unfortunate but most of the time, nothing will be done unless there is a significant accident history - priority wise there are probably a bunch of intersections with worse crash histories than the Five Points intersection.
Pierre Tong (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
5 Points Neighbor (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Let's put it like this:
This is a 6-way intersection ( * 3 * roads ), however the light pattern is only for 4-way intersection ( * 2 * roads). It's no wonder people are confused, and feel it is dangerous.
There NO light for Glenn Ave, and yet it is not one way, so it is legal to drive into the intersection (straight, right, or hard right) without ever having a light cycle, across this intersection whenever you want to:
https://goo.gl/maps/wJAPJbJ8F2p
This is insane. I can't imagine this follows proper guidelines. It's like they "went cheap" pretending Fairview and Whitaker were opposing traffic lanes, and ignored everything else.
Pierre Tong (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
eatberry (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Pierre Tong (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Raleigh_Citizen (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
Tom Ray (Người dùng đã đăng ký)
I may be in the minority here but after 47 years driving though this intersection, removing the left turn option would be untenable for many reasons, including GoRaleigh bus service. People will have to obey the rules, but I think a longer left turn signal would cure many of the ills discussed.
Five Points is a unique situation to Raleigh, with the area of commercial and residential as well as Underwood Elementary adding to the mix. The land values of the neighborhood pretty much guarantee that the area will remain desirable.
We all have to adjust to growth, however I simply do not see ending left turns as a viable resolution.